Curse

zk_ · Nov 04, 2010, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Couldn't believe it when I first heard we’ll be able to fill a party with heroes in the not-too-distant future. Now that I'm finally done with the first wave of joy-induced cartwheels, I want to bring up an idea I had a while back about henchmen.

Henchmen will be almost completely useless once this has been implemented. For those new to the game with very little unlocked, henchmen would outperform heroes, and I think henchmen should remain because of it, but aside from that heroes are superior for obvious reasons.

So I would like to suggest that henchmen be given the option of becoming heroes.

Similar to the end of nightfall, in the throne of secrets, when you walked up to the heroes you hadn't recruited and were given the option to recruit them then; let us talk to henchmen in towns to open up a dialogue window that lets us recruit them as a hero. There could be conditions, such as needing to finish the appropriate campaign first, somewhat like hard mode. Or each could require a quest to complete before they become a hero for your toon, like most heroes already did. (Though a quest for everybody would be a little tedious, imo. Just saying there are options.) It's also an opportunity to work other npcs into the hero business, though this is probably stretching it. I would personally love to have the oddbodies and the apostate as heroes, for instance. Ah well, getting back on topic...

The way I see it is you go up to, let's say, mhenlo. Any mhenlo from any campaign in any town, and have him join you as a hero. You gain "mhenlo" in your hero tab. Nothing fancy. I would prefer that this entity remain separate from any mhenlo henchmen, so that if someone felt like it, they could have two running around in their party for the amusement. But I would understand losing the ability to add any mhenlo henchmen to your party if you already have the hero version or vice versa.

The reason I favor this talk to them idea rather than just adding a hero version of every hench character to everyone's hero tab or something is because it gives the player options. For instance, I'm not going to run danika. Ever. I just can't stand her, and if all the henchmen were simply added as heroes I'd be a little annoyed scrolling past her every time. It's not a big deal, sure, but it's there. And anyone that does like her has the option of getting her, and that's how I feel things should be done. Different strokes for different folks and all, so whenever possible I think it should be in the player's hands.

Another reason I like this idea is there just aren't enough heroes. For example, none of my elementalist heroes have any runes, because there are four elements but only three elementalist heroes and there's no way of knowing what element I'm going to feel like running.

Ultimately though, the bottom line of this post is there are a lot of visual resources, henchmen characters that people like, and this seems like a decent way to incorporate them into the fold rather than having them standing around twiddling their thumbs.

(Actual bottom line: Talon, anet. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, let me have Talon as a hero. I love Talon. I want him in every party I ever form until the end of time. Please, please, PLEASE, do not come so close to letting me without actually doing it. I'm begging you here!)

Marco_vd · Nov 04, 2010, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Hhhmmmm, most of the henchman have crappy builds, so, just give me hero's.
Or you can change the build of a henchman, but i won't see that happen.

gremlin · Nov 04, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Some problems they would have to overcome before it could happen, I am thinking of players having heroes and henchmen mixes.
One player has Talon as a hero another has him as a henchman.
Also the recruited ex henchmen would be taken to areas where they are not available as a henchman.
Would hate a load of crashes because of it because the game has a habit or removing henchmen as you travel round the map, even when your start and end point have access to a specific henchman.

On number and types there would be some interesting possibilities party wise.
At present, Dervish Assassin Mesmer and Ritualist have 2 heroes the rest have 3.

With Henchmen the numbers available are Warrior 7 Ranger 7 Monk 9 Necro 5 Mesmer 5 Elementalist 8 Assassin 4 Ritualist 3 Dervish 1 Paragon 1.
So that would make another 50 heroes to equip.

I think my numbers are correct and it would give some interesting possibilities always provided parties made up of one class doesn't cause overkill in pve 8 elementalists for example.

I wouldn't mind them adding Danika as a hero along with her two Wallow companions.

Scary · Nov 04, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Nice story,

but sry ...just a simple no.
Leave the hench as they are for those who don't have any hero's yet.

Beside that, we have already lots of hero's which we want to use when
hopefully tommorow we can use a 7 of them in a party

Dont want more to make it more difficult to choose.

Spookii · Nov 04, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

I sort of wondered what would happen to henchmen after this update, but I don't know about this. It sounds nice, but it also sounds waaaay too complicated and un-GuildWarsey.

Talk to the henchman, set their skills in the dialog box, and then recruit them into your party? So if you change your mind multiple times, you have to reset their skills each time you want to add them to your party? Or would they retain their bars like heroes?

I kinda like the idea... but then again I also really like the idea of clear water beds with fish inside and inner lights. But is it a good idea? Probably not, lol.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Nov 04, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

i like it that some people think this much....
but this isnt much good for the game, and its community

- too much coding, and we want them to give us that content before GW2....
- some people i've talked to find the game too easy, this will make it worse

i call this overpowered with the upcoming full hero teams
dunno what builds could overpower it (maybe more discord heroes), but people + full hero + hench acting like heroes, that can be way too much for the game (as for lag/crashes/bugs, but also like the overpowered teams)

maybe there will be more problems, but i doubt anything good would come from this
sry to say so, but full hero team will be enough in the hero subject

also, henchies should stay bad/not as good

EDIT:
1 more thing, some people rather use henchies cuz they arent good at making builds, and dont like to use pvx builds, so henchies will be used anytime, even after full hero

Archress Shayleigh · Nov 04, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

where does it say that we will be able to fill the party with heroes?

Marco_vd · Nov 04, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archress Shayleigh

where does it say that we will be able to fill the party with heroes?

An upcoming update will allow a full party of heroes instead of the maximum three.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero

MithranArkanere · Nov 04, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Although I agree that getting more heroes would be nice, I would add at least 6 for Prophecies and 8 for Factions, since you can't unlock skills for other professions in those. That would make a total of 40 heroes:
- 5 warriors
- 5 rangers
- 5 monks.
- 5 necromancers.
- 4 mesmers
- 5 elementalists.
- 3 assassins
- 3 ritualists.
- 2 paragons
- 3 dervishes.

But if you take out the henchmen, those that are just starting and have few unlocked skills would have too much trouble, since they heroes would have just the few skills they start with.

So I'm all for adding more heroes, and even turning some of the Henchmen in heroes, but not all of them.
For example, the 5 Ascalon Heroes (Cynn, Eve, Mehnlo, Aidan and Devone) appear in way too many outposts to make them heroes. While heroes appear in only a few outposts (if they appear at all like Livia does) and events by themselves.

NPCs found in the starting areas that may be alive, are related to the plot but not used very like the Elementalist Aziure or Ang the Ephemeral would be good choices for heroes too.

Xiner · Nov 04, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

i like it that some people think this much....
but this isnt much good for the game, and its community

- too much coding, and we want them to give us that content before GW2....
- some people i've talked to find the game too easy, this will make it worse

i call this overpowered with the upcoming full hero teams
dunno what builds could overpower it (maybe more discord heroes), but people + full hero + hench acting like heroes, that can be way too much for the game (as for lag/crashes/bugs, but also like the overpowered teams)

maybe there will be more problems, but i doubt anything good would come from this
sry to say so, but full hero team will be enough in the hero subject

also, henchies should stay bad/not as good

EDIT:
1 more thing, some people rather use henchies cuz they arent good at making builds, and dont like to use pvx builds, so henchies will be used anytime, even after full hero

Your pretty right that it makes lots of much easier for lots of people. But I don't think it makes anything overpowered. I mean you can also do stuff with 8 realplayer parties. And those real players can even use PvE-skills.
Some may say now that real players can be worse than anything. But the same is to heroes. Heroes can have really worse builds, while hench have ready builds which are not worse than worse. (Ok i have to admit I don't like them but some monk hench still do a thing called healing)

Dre · Nov 04, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Although I agree that getting more heroes would be nice, I would add at least 6 for Prophecies and 8 for Factions, since you can't unlock skills for other professions in those. That would make a total of 40 heroes:
- 5 warriors
- 5 rangers
- 5 monks.
- 5 necromancers.
- 4 mesmers
- 5 elementalists.
- 3 assassins
- 3 ritualists.
- 2 paragons
- 3 dervishes.

But if you take out the henchmen, those that are just starting and have few unlocked skills would have too much trouble, since they heroes would have just the few skills they start with.

So I'm all for adding more heroes, and even turning some of the Henchmen in heroes, but not all of them.
For example, the 5 Ascalon Heroes (Cynn, Eve, Mehnlo, Aidan and Devone) appear in way too many outposts to make them heroes. While heroes appear in only a few outposts (if they appear at all like Livia does) and events by themselves.

NPCs found in the starting areas that may be alive, are related to the plot but not used very like the Elementalist Aziure or Ang the Ephemeral would be good choices for heroes too.

needs moar paragon heroes, tbh

Astral_Nomad · Nov 04, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I stated in the survey we took that in order to have a 7 hero party but not make work too hard for the developers and newbies is leave the henchmen for the lower levels and prof characters that wont have anything to work with right away.

Use the 7 hero parties for the higher/elite stuff like Slaver's Exile. Now, im not just saying this cause i want it to be easier.. i could care less either way on that... my point in it was so that those of us who have NOT completed the elite areas could do so without having to depend on a PUG to get us through.

This is because so many people have finished those areas, they arent doing them anymore which makes it a lot harder for the rest of us who came after the fact to get it done. Theres hardly anyone to form PUGs with, and even those that are there, arent doing it to do the full run.. they are mostly just farming. I dont see why those of us that entered the game late in the game's life cycle should have to be held back because of this.

Not all places have to have the 7-hero rule.. I feel it only needs to be in areas of necessity for lack of human population/participation. I would be happy just to see it in the areas where its actually needed.

Anyways.. thats my 2 cents.

Shriketalon · Nov 04, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

What about making them a ninth party member, similar to summoning stones?

You can recruit a single henchmen who will accompany you in an adjacent explorable or mission, and you get the Recruitment effect that brings them along, but prohibits use of summoning stones. The Recruitment condition of the party leader overrides anything else, and it subtracts a fee when you enter an explorable or mission. A Recruited henchmen sticks with your party until they die.

Essentially, a gold sink/flexible summoning mechanic that mirrors a current system, but allows each mission to have its own customized selection of extra help.

zk_ · Nov 05, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Some problems they would have to overcome before it could happen, I am thinking of players having heroes and henchmen mixes.
One player has Talon as a hero another has him as a henchman.

I don't see a problem there.
Why would it be any different than how the game already handles existing overlap? An npc, or simply the first player to load, gets the hero's specific name (ie zhed shadowhoof) and any others just get the generic name (ie centaur elementalist).

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

I think my numbers are correct and it would give some interesting possibilities always provided parties made up of one class doesn't cause overkill in pve 8 elementalists for example.

What overkill?
Two players could already bring 8 elementalists.
One player will be able to bring 3 elementalists and 3 or 4 necro or mesmer or whatever /elementalists.
I don't see that one player having 8 elementalists on their own would be very different than what anet is already going to allow in terms of being "overpowered". As if characters that can't use pve skills can even really be considered overpowered in pve anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

Talk to the henchman, set their skills in the dialog box, and then recruit them into your party? So if you change your mind multiple times, you have to reset their skills each time you want to add them to your party? Or would they retain their bars like heroes?

You misunderstood me. All I meant was that I'd like you to be able to walk up to a henchmen and it would say something along the lines of "would you like me to permanently join you on your travels: yes/no" and if you select yes you gain a hero that looks like that henchman. That's all. Functionally identical to heroes, just using the names/graphics of existing henchmen.

And I'm not suggesting anything happen to the actual henchmen, as some other people who've replied seem to think. I think the henchmen should still be there, same as they are now. I just think it would be great to add a hero version of them because:

1) people who do like to make their own builds or run things they find on pvx are not going to use henchmen once this change comes, so this would give them some additional use. I'm sure anet has already considered this problem, but I felt that I might as well throw this idea out there.

2) the additional amount of heroes per profession would expand the builds available to us. There have been times when I've wanted to run, say, a party of nothing but warriors and monks, as an homage to war machine or something, but simply couldn't unless I could find another player who was as crazy as I am and also happened to be in the mood for it. Increasing the hero limit to 7 still isn't going to let me do nonsense like this, and I think that's sad.

3) some of us get emotionally attached to some characters. I've got a friend who'd bring herta and zho with him all over the place if he could.

So I just think it's a fairly simple solution to several issues at once. *shrug*

Spookii · Nov 05, 2010, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I think it's a nice idea, but I don't think that it's a good idea.

We really don't need any more heroes. People will be able to build meltzfacez builds with the heroes they have now. If you want to run with a henchman, just bring him and sacrifice that 1 hero slot and you'll still melt faces probably. There's no other reason that I can see other than "I'll miss using henchies"...which, while cute, isn't much of a reason imo.